Beyond the Robots: Redefining Success

What does it take to build a meaningful career in robotics while navigating rejection, leadership, parenthood and the pressures of academia?

In this episode of The Human Stories Behind the Robots, John speaks with Dr Antonia Tzemanaki, Associate Professor in Robotics at the University of Bristol and leader of the Dexterous Manipulation and Wearable Robotics Group at Bristol Robotics Laboratory.

Antonia shares how curiosity and unexpected opportunities led her from electrical and computer engineering into medical robotics, haptics and teleoperation. She also reflects on becoming a research leader, redefining success, balancing academia with motherhood and learning to treat rejection as part of the journey.

What listeners will gain

Listeners will discover:

• How openness and cross-disciplinary collaboration can help researchers find their niche. 
• Why meaningful research should be guided by real human and clinical needs. 
• How success can evolve from personal achievement to helping a team flourish. 
• Practical ways to learn from rejected papers and funding proposals. 
• Why mentors, supportive colleagues and a sense of belonging matter. 
• How parenthood can reshape boundaries, priorities and definitions of success. 
• What early-career researchers should look for in a healthy workplace culture. 

Key takeaway

Antonia’s story shows that a successful career does not require a perfect plan. Curiosity, resilience and the right people can open unexpected paths. Success is not only measured by grants and publications, but also by what you learn, the people you help and the environment you create for others.

The purpose of this podcast is to inspire students and early-career researchers, building our academic robotics community by sharing the human stories behind the robots. 

Email: ​​uk-ras@manchester.ac.uk for questions or topic suggestions you may have for future episodes.

This show is brought to you by the UK-RAS network, you can follow us on X and Linkedin or visit our website to find out more www.https://uk-ras.org.uk/ Produced and directed by Heather Pownall of Heather's Media Hub Ltd and award-winning producer.

The opinions of our host and guests are their own; The UK-RAS network does not endorse any individual viewpoints, given products or companies. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate, review and subscribe with the podcast provider of your choice.

Transcript

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John 0:10

Hello and welcome to Human Stories Behind Robots, a podcast from the UK RAS network exploring the people behind robotics research and innovation. In this series, we will be speaking with researchers, engineers, entrepreneurs, and innovators from across the robotics community to uncover the personal stories behind their careers. We will explore the moments that inspire them, the challenges they have overcome, the lessons they have learned, and the experiences that have shaped through the air today. Because behind every breakthrough, behind every innovation and every robot, there is a human story. I'm your host, Dr. John Oyekan. Let's get started. Good day everyone, welcome to the Human Stories Behind the Robots. My guest today is Dr. Antonia Tzeman aki, who is an associate professor in robotics at the University of Bristol. She leads the Dexterior's Manipulation and Variable Robotics Group at Bristol Robotics Laboratory. A group specializes in human and robot and exoskeletons, haptics and robot dexterity with applications spanning surgery, physiotherapy and clinical training through to teleoperation in extreme environments such as nuclear and space. Antonia holds a PhD in medical robotics from University of West England in Bristol and the Bristol Robotics Laboratory. She also holds an MSE in robotics from the University of West England, uh Bristol. She's a co-chair of IEEE Telepresence 2026, and she was named among the 50 women robotics you need to know about in 2021. Hello, Antonia. It's good to have you on our podcast today. The human stories behind the robots. Welcome.

Antonia 2:19

Hi John, and thank you so much for having me. Thank you for the introduction as well.

John 2:23

Yeah, thank you once again for coming onto the podcast uh today. Um my first question to you and Antonia is your topic here is quite fascinating. Um why did you get into this field and who was your biggest inspiration?

Antonia 2:38

Oh, okay. Um well um I started uh as an 17, 18 year old just being fascinated with computers, really. I think I just wanted to do something to do with computers, so I didn't really know exactly what then. And I studied my uh first degree, which was an MN. She was electrical and computer engineering. So that was back in Greece, uh, where I come from. So that was a five-year degree. And sort of in the middle of it, I kind of lost a little bit of interest. I lost the interest in the computers, but then I found robotics, which was one of the taught uh units then, and I really fell in love with that. I also had an amazing uh um uh teacher for that unit who really, really inspired me. And I thought, you know what, that is something I might want to do for my final gear project, my dissertation on the fifth year. So so this led me to robotics. After that, again, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. You I just basically it floated around my studies being a little bit clueless, but being drawn by what I found exciting. And she gave me a good advice at graduation. She said, if you don't know what you want to do, just keep studying. Which I I love that advice. Of course, it comes from a place of privilege because you have to have you have to be able to have the support to do that. So this led me to doing an additional MSc in robotics, as you said, here in England. And uh during that um MSC, um some one of my supervisors here uh suggested uh to do I mean I was interested in sort of hands and manipulation and how human hands and robot hands sort of intercept. But then she suggested uh my supervisor here at um during the MSE, um uh why don't you look into rehabilitation and sort of the medical side of the human hands and robot hands? And that seemed intriguing. So I started looking into the medical side of robotics uh since then, and that was a thing 20 um 12 or 11, 2011. Um after which I decided then to continue then and do a PhD in medical robotics um on a topic again that had to do with hands, robot hands, uh, but this time I'm uh applied in surgery. Um so this is how I sort of found my niche area, and and then a lot of that perhaps was a bit going with the flow and being open to you know whatever came my way. And I think after the PhD decision, things got a little bit more intentional, and I realized, you know, this is really interesting. I started collaborating with surgeons, um observing what they were doing in the hospital, getting inspired by all of that, and uh then continuing it uh after the PhD studies as uh as a researcher post option and faculty position.

John 5:47

So it seems to me that your your journey has evolved from being clueless to going to computer science to then working on dexterity, and now you're not doing medical uh robotics. So I guess well so in in in as academics, right, we tend to try to distinguish our field by focusing on a particular topic or line of inquiry. And for early careers to mid-careers and researchers, it's often that you feel like you are building a plane as you are going down the runway, right? Because you're also trying to discover your research area, your research idea. Would you say that um you've discovered that and how what were the influences that enabled you to cone in on that on that topic now?

Antonia 6:38

I do, I do um relate to what you said about feeling clueless and really not knowing what to do, starting from somewhere and then being open, as I said before, to see what else comes your way. Um so I think after my PhD, I had a really good relationship with my clinician collaborators, and that really helped continue because discussion with them and this sort of cross-disciplinary uh discussions that we had is what really helped me open my mind and and you know, uh find different topics and find different applications of any ideas on every research we had, because I was all I'm always driven by sort of the end uh user and what we need to make for them, not make something that uh um well no one has any use for. So I think the turning point was that sort of at the end of the PhD, we actually um had a really big success. I was part of writing a European Commission proposal, like Horizon 2020, and that um was successful and it it allowed me to then sort of extend the work of my PhD into that. It was a very similar topic. It was basically my part was an extension of what I was doing with my PhD. So I continued from that, and then forward from that, when I also got uh two years later my faculty position, I um then applied for different grants, such as uh um uh EPSRC and Cancer Research UK, and then we got some uh a grant to work on breast examination with robots and automating this. That really then opened me also to different areas, not just hands and manipulation, but tactile sensing uh that I started exploring, soft robotics, um um and and other collaborations with people here at the University of Bristol really, really opened my eyes and uh made me sort of more rich in what I was putting together. And um then we had also some people talking about space robotics and nuclear robotics, and interestingly, at some point when I was a teenager, I wanted to be an astronaut and do something with space.

John 8:57

Yeah, we all we many of us wanted to.

Antonia 8:59

I was thinking, do I apply for robotics masters or do I apply for a space exploration master? So I was a little bit there. I had to choose, and I did choose robotics back then, I think, um just after my first degree. Um so I thought, okay, maybe that's an opportunity I want to explore. So I worked with uh some people from industry from Talis Alinea Space, and we had a really interesting project which was all about understanding how haptics is involved in teleoperation. And this is also when I integrated my collaborators from clinical and surgery, because we basically did a huge study about understanding the requirements and trustworthiness of such teleoperated systems, even if they are space, uh robotics, or nuclear environment, or even surgery. Because what we found was that there was so much overlap. So basically, trying to answer, you know, uh what how did I discover where I am is by um being open to people who would talk to me really and tell me their ideas, and then trying to integrate what I could hear in something that would interest me. Um, and that's sort of how then I continue to do teleoperation and medical robotics at the same time with haptics and with tactile sensing.

John 10:19

Yeah, that that's quite interesting. And there are two things that um that popped out to me. Yeah, so early in your career, you were exploring. That's your exploration phase. Being open, listening to people, you know, going across disciplines, then as time went on, you started honing in and exploiting what you've already learned from all this diverse view and using it to develop your own unique line of inquiry. Um that be correct to say.

Antonia 10:48

Yes, I think it is correct to say there's definitely a big truth in that, a big percentage of truth. I think though that the exploration doesn't really stop. If you're an academic, you have to keep keep exploring. And and you know, something like four years ago, I found myself doing a project on needle insertion um for um for prostate biopsy at the time. And then somehow five years later now I'm still doing that. And I've had three different projects uh going for the fourth soon on on putting needles on human bodies with robots. So it's it's a bit strange of how you you find yourself from doing robot hands to that. But I also believe it's part of the same sphere because it's all about dexterity and doing it in the most inaccurate and you know best way that you can using automation. And this again, as you said, is something I am honing uh you know in onto because we are looking now to try to translate our research into uh applicability of clinicians and commercialization, perhaps. So we've been part of um Innovate UK IQ programs to try to see how we can actually make that happen. So, you know, we we are exploring still, uh, but we're also trying to then you know look into furthering the applications a bit more specifically.

John 12:11

That's quite interesting, and and I want to take you a bit back your five years, ten years ago, you know, how has your definition of success evolved um from when you started um including all your progress, all your achievements? How has your definition of success evolved in those five to ten years window?

Antonia 12:32

Definition of success. Um I think um I don't know, at some point I don't think I ever really was about the money thing. I don't know if that I mean if you're gonna go to academia, it's not really your probably your first priority. Um success would be, I guess, when you're a master student or generally, you know, a student and then master's or PhD student about getting results, getting, you know, what you need, um a a good outcome, um a good graph, um a robot that's actually working and it's not just failing mid midpoint. It happens so much. Um and I guess you're right, you know, that has um that hasn't evolved because when I see this with my students, necessarily I don't I don't necessarily want them to have a robot that works. It's more about the learning and the the research and what we understand in the journey. Um so personally for me, I feel success when my team is successful. I think that's a new thing. It wasn't at the beginning because I didn't have a team, I was working on my own, I was working for myself, but now I've got other people around me and the collective success. Um I feel I I you know I'm I'm proud of them and I own part of it as well somehow, as more pile on their success in a way.

Speaker 1 14:02

Yeah.

John 14:03

I mean it's quite interesting there what you said about collective success because some of the interviewees we've we've we've had in the past say that it's when their team is working at 100% that they know they've they have that you know feeling of fulfillment because their role then switches from doing everyday tasks to enabling their teams to be successful and clearing out you know all the obstacles and and and anything that might be hindering the progress of the team. Well I mean, how's that experience been for for you from an academic point of view?

Antonia 14:40

Yeah, the I mean there's there's a lot of that. Um in the past um uh six years or seven almost now, I think at the University of Bristol, uh I have had lots of different Ph students and postdoctoral researchers, and whenever they graduate, obviously it's such a you know moment of of happiness for everybody around here. And then um even and oh when a postdoc leaves, um there's a there's a feeling of sadness. Oh, I wanted them to stay, but you know, funding in academia is goes up and down, it's not continuous almost ever. Um but then they get a really good uh job in industry and or or some in some other institution, and then again you feel really good about this, and and you feel that perhaps you played a part in their life that might have helped them and maybe inspired them. And the thing, you know, one of my goals was as I've had people inspire me. I mean, I mentioned my fresh supervisor back in Greece, and she was a huge inspiration for a lot of these things. You know, her name is uh Zoe, uh Zoe Vilgari, she's a professor now. Um and I wanted to inspire people in the same way. Um and I every time this I feel that this might happen, is it it's a huge sort of satisfaction in what I do, and sometimes it will justify all the challenges and troubles that we might have uh in in our profession.

Speaker 1 16:03

Yeah.

John 16:03

No, that is it's quite interesting you say that because um I think that's one of the re rewarding things about being an academ academia. Oh, sorry, being an academic, because you are like a tree that has fruits and you disperses your, you know, the dandelions that sort of flows out into the world. When your dandelions um the uh yeah, the seats are your students.

Antonia 16:26

Yeah, I like I like that. I like that, yeah.

John 16:29

Exactly. And sometimes you contact them, I'm gonna be in your town, you know, could we catch up? Or oh, my student is coming to your town to do a conference, could you please take care of him? And that relationship goes on through through life.

Antonia 16:42

Yeah, again, and and that also is with some colleagues as well that are not your students, you know, along along the way you meet people that uh will uplift you and and you have the same relationship, and that also makes it worthwhile. And that's why also I love going to conferences when I can. Because as a networking, there's a science, but there's also l, you know, seeing these colleagues that are a big part of your of your journey, and you don't get to see them that often.

John 17:08

That's quite interesting. Yeah. Okay, and then one of the things I want to do now is to take you um to take you back to uh the reality of your role because you're an academic, um, you're also a a woman in acad in the academia, and women are known to uh face incredible challenges, you know, due to their role at home, um life as hard work, taking care of of kids, and wider societal expectations on top of the pressures to and pressure to publish, teach, get funding for their labs and and and so on. Um and I know you're also a parent. So uh how has becoming a parent influenced you know your workload and how have you managed it?

Antonia 17:54

Well, I don't know if I have managed it yet, but it has definitely influenced it, of course. Um I I think you're right. I mean, I've had faced many challenges over the years. Um, our profession deals with people, and you've got people that will hinder you or made you feel less confident or question yourself, and then you have other people that will completely balance this out and uplift you, as I said before, and they will really inspire you to continue. Um and there have been many challenges like that that I wouldn't be able to pick what would be the word the most difficult one. But I guess childcare has been definitely at the top of the list. Um, it has been a great but beautiful challenge, I have to say. So I'm a mother of one boy and I'm currently uh pregnant to my second, who's also going to be a boy. Umgratulations.

John 18:43

Wow, too late.

Antonia 18:45

Your work is cut out. I think that the childcare challenge is is is a challenge for every parent, but I I hope I'm not too arrogant to say that is especially true for um many academics, um, because um uh parent academic parents and carers, they they often travel away from their extended families, and then they don't have the village that might have always uh otherwise been around them to support and help them raise uh, you know, their the kids, the children. Um so that help isn't there. You rely a lot on nurseries and and other uh outside sort of childcare. Um everything is really expensive. We have seen government schemes fail or have some successes. Um and you know, it it is a great challenge time to balance everything. I don't know if I have managed it, but if I have managed it to the point I am, it's it's completely because in my case I have been super lucky to have a fully supportive husband who absolutely will take 50% of the workload or sometimes even more and will support me in anything I I want to do. Um I think the the other challenge related to childcare is also this mental sort of is it a mental shift? Is it a conflict that you know as an academic we know that uh unfortunately we go a little bit overboard and we work in the nights and we go on the weekends and we you to to catch up and to stay on top, we kind of have to do some of that. But after but after I had, you know, my my my child did i I found that I do not own my time anymore. So I cannot work in in the in the evenings and the weekends. I mean sometimes we do, and that's because my my husband will support. But then you have to be really careful because that will take a toll on your family if you do it too much. Um so it's about this sort of mental conflict of wanting to spend time with your family and quality time, but at the same time having this sort of at the back of your mind this this pressure that um you're missing a deadline or you have this fear of missing out on what's happening in the academic world. And just try to manage that, I guess, is the most is the biggest challenge. Um I think I'm just basically repeating your question. I don't because I think it's because I don't have a true answer to that. I'm I'm still trying to manage it, I guess.

John 21:24

No, no, you're you're right, yeah, because I guess as as a parent, because I'm also a parent, the you know, the the kids go through different phases, and so your role is evolving as the grow, you know, and it's it's always a challenge, uh basically. But what I found quite interesting what you said there is you you you have a partner who is um highly supportive of what you do, so that's very, very helpful. And the second thing you said there was having a village very, very interesting concept, you know, a village or an network of people that you can rely on or a community of people you can you rely on and that could be you know in-laws or your parents is if if they're still around or even you know friends in the community that also have similar challenges um as you you know you could double up and say drop your kids with me I'll take a look of after them for you know X number of hours and and and and vice versa so yeah I think the challenge is always there having to juggle you know in a number a a number of things and if you remember I asked you what's your definition of success earlier how does your definition of success now change in relation to being a parent?

Antonia 22:46

That's an insightful question there. Yeah you know it's you have to be you know if if you manage to balance things in a way that you feel fulfilled from your work but then you actually spend quality time and you don't feel constantly guilty about you know uh not being there with your children I think that's that's a big that's a big success moment and when you see your children grow and change and smile well that that is just you know a new different type of success isn't it um which it's like you know it's like our parents uh I suppose will look at us and feel really proud whenever we we achieved something so you know even the small beats that my my son will achieve will absolutely make me feel uh fulfilled for the day. So you you're absolutely right.

John 23:42

Yeah it's quite interesting because at the end of the day when we have those grand rejections and you know acceptance which I'll come to later you know your family is is always you know what you turn to to either share you up or celebrate with you you know when those things are when the stars align and you get um but yes the definition of success you know when your kids are happy I guess I guess that the way to to manage it you know I'm I'm thinking all this time how do I manage it?

Antonia 24:13

How do I manage it? Not not great, not probably the best person in the world to do that but uh I have learned to say a little bit uh like more often no than I used to um probably not enough still um and then you also learn slowly to pick um what is important and choose to do only the most important bits and that can apply to the way you lead others to the the mentoring and generally all your work. But you know I I will repeat that it's a work in progress and I'm still learning to do that. I think having a second child will accelerate this learning because uh the village will have to grow and then you will have to find more efficient ways of doing things.

John 25:03

Yeah that that's quite interesting. Now I want to take you as well about what you said um in in your earlier um in your earlier statement you said that some people make you feel belonging some don't you know some encourage you some you know don't so how do you deal with the discouragement?

Antonia 25:23

I do remember uh you know years ago when I was more of a junior uh either a student or a junior researcher they would get me down more and they would uh possibly you know upset me possibly made me lose confidence then fortunately I was in a in a fortunate case to have friends talk about it um um you know my my partner and that would help uh but then I would also have the people as I said uplift me and as long as you have someone there like that from also still did the the field of area you work and that will listen to you and will give the advice that that really helped. There's also the the role of mentors and that can be really important for a lot of people I I never had official mentors I I mean I tried over different schemes that we usually have in university. It never really worked when I had an official mentor but when I had sort of an unofficial mentor or a line manager that somehow I clicked with that really helped going to them and saying you know this is how this has happened am I going crazy? Is it wrong? You know uh sort of help me would work that out and that has definitely really helped along the way as well but but honestly just uh as the years pass you and and it's one of my liner managers had told me many years ago you just need to grow a thick skin and at the time I didn't really like the advice because I don't want to grow a thick skin I want people to be nicer I want people to be kinder. I don't want them to treat me like this but you know obviously you can't control people and um um that is too optimistic sometimes to think that people will just be kind to you all the time um so I'm I have seen that naturally I probably have grown a little bit of a thick skin um of course you still have disappointment at times but then I guess you learn to try not to focus too much on on them. You know the workload is also kind of crazy isn't it so you don't have time to focus on this anymore. So you you just try to brush them off as best as you can and then wait for the next high moment to help you get past I guess.

John 27:37

Yeah that's that's quite interesting. So you mentioned there's a lot there because you mentioned about your mentor unofficial mentors work v worked very well for you. Was that because there was a characteristic of an unofficial mentor?

Antonia 27:53

Well I think it's because when there is an unofficior scheme you get usually paired with someone that you do not know and it might be a success it might not be with the unofficials unofficial mentors it kind of happens naturally.

John 28:08

So you you find someone uh you you talk to you kinda click you then talk more and then you before you know it you end up getting advice and exchanging and you know unloading or you know uploading or whatever you want to call it so I don't think it's the unofficial thing it's just about lay it's about finding someone who will click with you at at some personal level I guess at um some personality level I guess that links me on to another question Okay we are we are working in universities and and um yeah there are challenges within the university there are people um as you say that make you feel belonged people that don't make you feel belonged and I guess the question is and uh is that because of you know gender or any other protected characteristics do you feel that way and how do you think universities could help uh women in their roles to create a more inclusive environment that's that's a good question.

Antonia 29:16

It's uh it's a difficult question to answer. I I believe I personally didn't have anything I could attribute into sort of a protective characteristic in terms of like ethnicity um perhaps sometimes I felt gender might have played a bit of a role um but it's also very difficult to to know for sure. I think generally people in any profession but let's talk about academia specifically we are overworked and there's often not enough time to to spend on the human level with a colleague um you it's a competitive field so a lot of uh uh people will really obviously try to do the best they can for their own personal sake and their their team and their uh their their progression of course uh you know there's there's the practical side of things um you have the networking events you have the um the getting together as a as a faculty or as a school I remember the first um you know the first year after my my first modernity leave um I came back and I was doing flexible working which basic which is great that universities can you know support that and I was doing something basically called compressed weeks I was working four days but I was doing the work of five days in four days and I remember I had taken Wednesday off completely to do childcare. And it happened that all the important school and faculty meetings were on that day which made me feel that I was really out of the loop and I wasn't really participating in any decisions. And remember at the time I had asked can we not make them to be some on a Wednesday, some on a different day, just basically rotating around and people did obviously listen and they tried but it was really difficult because you have to just get it you know um for for for hundreds of people at the same time you know calendars cannot really overlap that easily. So then I decided to actually change my day to a different day and then I was able to participate on those Wednesday you know important meetings and and that that helped and I think obviously we know from university and I have led some groups around parenthood and academia in terms of research but also in terms of community here at the University of Bristol. We know that most of the carers are usually women um but but I have to say also that I'm really optimistic because I feel that this is changing. I don't know if you find that but I find a lot of the uh fathers and male carers are really stepping up and taking responsibilities, taking the you know share parent leave um they are really understanding about the fact that they cannot be putting an event uh you know at 5 pm because you have to go to pick up your child from a nursery at school um and and that shift is is just um you know bringing sort of warmth to my heart and I'm hoping that you know in a few years things will even progress even more there's still so much that we have to do right so I mean paternity leave share share parental leave is kind of good but paternity leave my God in most universities still two weeks which is so unacceptable I don't know why we're still putting up with it.

John 32:52

Yeah. I know it's quite interesting you say that because yeah I think things are changing and I'm seeing more dads now especially in academia uh probably because that's what I I I have visibility of you know dads bringing their kids to work you know carrying them in their front uh um baby carrier coming into work and MET and what I also found quite interesting was at the recent robotics conference Accra um they also had childcare facilities on site and I had another colleague who just gave batters where she's from Bosnia um and she too brought her child I had three colleagues or four colleagues that brought us there were many with cramps or the carrier exactly in in ECR 2023 which was in London I went with a baby carrier my son then being uh probably a little bit less than a year old and I was attending all the talks with him strapped you know here and and and you know and it was it was another moment of fulfillment for me then because um female PhD students that I did not know would be coming up to me seeing me with my baby in the in my sling in my carrier and saying thank you for being here with your baby because you make us feel that it's possible and I I thought don't record that's such a nice thing for someone to say to you yeah yeah and I think what what I actually maybe this could be an advice to the robotics conference organizers they should give spouse registration as well so that the spouse can come and you know I mean if you are giving a talk and your partner is is there he could take care of the kid while you're giving the presentation and and enjoy part of the experience which I have another colleague that does that a lot sometimes she brings a partner and said look we're all friends in robotics community come along and mingle and yeah that that's quite interesting.

Antonia 34:46

Yeah that's a great great idea and I have to say that the universities I don't know if you all do it but at least my university um they supported me in especially in the first two years after my maternity leave um with uh paying my son's ticket to come with me in every conference I needed and then I would also bring um I has my husband to take care of my son while I was at the conference or busy doing the talk and you know we got able to actually be there and and even you know like you know I was breastfeeding at the time and I didn't want to stop it. So I didn't want me going back to work to to to prevent me from doing something I also wanted to do with my family. So that was a big wink for me to be able to balance that at the time.

John 35:32

So those are some of the tips that you know universities, university ecosystem or even the research ecosystem could could learn from to make our lives as parents even better because success is not only about the academic papers and publications of funding is also the overall rounded success about being a parent about being successful at life and juggling that work life life balance. One thing I also want to say though is you know an academic goes through more failures than success. You know in terms of publications having your papers rejected proposals and most academics often feel that those failures and rejections are an attack on their morale or their sense of what as an academic so the question is can you remember how a setback you know a rejection setback or failure setback completely changed the direction of your career or and how did they affect you deeply?

Antonia 36:38

Yeah there are there have been a few points like that. So um I was a little bit it was I was unlucky I was lucky and a little bit unlucky at the same time because the first two proposals we put forward they were both funded the European Commission one I mentioned before and then the Council of UK one and it sort of felt easy. I was like okay great two out of two you know and then and then things changed the failures started coming in and I remember there was a summer July and August that in the span of probably a month I had something like four rejections and to the point you know I got a bit and I be I got a bit sad at the first one then a bit sad at the second one and after that it became a joke almost you know like bring them on you know just keep piling the rejections and you know I don't know if it's about growing a thick skin about it's just like you know as a problem is like okay well I already had my sad period about the first two what can we do there's another one and another one and um after that um I have found quite a lot of joy in the submission process. I mean this it's a stress such a stressful project process but you when you click the submit it feels like you accomplished something because it's so difficult to put big teams together. You know in October we were October yes October November we were putting together a proposal with uh with with um University of Bristol and then lots of uh you know academic and uh hospitals from Senegal as well as hospitals from Bristol um and other universities in Canada and it was a big proposal and I thought my go how how will I ever be able to put it together you know and and then I I submitted it and you know that was a huge you know sort of uh fulfillment moment again we're talking about fulfillment quite a lot today um and then that didn't go through we did we got a really good mark feedback and we're just gonna do it again now. So I and and then when you're invited to join consortiums that's also joy for me because I love working with people I like I love exchanging sort of these ideas and seeing what can come up so I of course I will be so happy when I get a an acceptance you know a positive outcome um but I'm trying to find a lot of the positivity in the process as well and there was a moment back back in um probably a year ago about this time that I got an email about a success in one of my proposals and I was at the car at the moment I remember I sort of started screaming out of joy because because and you know it was it I mean it was great that I got a proposal but it was specifically because I had a brilliant PhD who had just finished and he had said no to a company that was offering him a permanent position for the sort of um possibility that he would work with me on that proposal on that project if he was funded and then I felt quite a lot of pressure. I was like oh my god you know he he's getting a house he needs to have you know some income he said no to that company so I really need to get that and I did get it and and then immediately text him was like we got it we got it over in you know you're gonna have a job now and and that was you know again of course it was great that we got the funding and I was happy for myself and you know the project and all of that but I was double happy because of the team that was gonna also get funded.

John 40:22

It's quite interesting you said then that the the the the the process is is what is enjoyable so you know the process of writing it because during the process as well you know it comes up you you you probably on unravel new things that you never thought about and you know and that leads to the evolution of your thinking an evolution of your of the possibility out there. So engaging with the process is also as important as writing and even if it fails you know you've learned something about it and trying again in that without recycling the money yeah.

Antonia 41:00

Yeah yeah I mean you definitely learn a lot of things from from these failures. I mean I mean some people might learn more than others you know it has to be how you deal with them and how how you take on this feedback and the rejection in a constructive way and then trying to do the best you can with them. You can't avoid it we will have loads of them and you know another thing that you learn along the way of of not letting it get to you too much. Of course if you have zero success for a long time that will probably start putting you down and then depending on how the univers your university will work you might get more teaching or admin duties which means that you have less time then to actually work on these proposals.

John 41:46

But um yeah I have to say University of Bristol has been quite good in terms of giving you opportunities and support in that domain so um yeah I can't complain too much to that so the environment is also very very important which which I guess is one of the things that Ref, you know the research excellence framework also also has that the research environment is one of the metrics.

Antonia 42:13

Yeah and I have been actually the conquer the research conquered champion for my school for the last three years I think now so I I have been responsible for sort of maintaining a good culture in our community of research in my school so um especially for the you know the more the more junior academics uh the researchers the postdoctoral um researchers um so yeah I do feel it's very very important the environment of uplifting you of supporting you of taking you with it um and then um making you not feel alone and making you feel belonging you use the word belonging I think it's really really important to have that sense because then you feel appreciated don't you and then that's the most important thing of course yeah and and and how do you feel? I mean when you get this rejection you brush it off is there anything else tips that you use to get yourself back you know well Oh I suppose the most recent one was in October we br we brush it off and we said oh well we'll try again no actually that's not true I had one just last week didn't I see you just forget about that yeah we we admit for a European Commission in our project and we got a really good mark again because you know I I I also do evaluations uh of grants and I can see how difficult and how competitive it is and how difficult to get a good uh mark on all the categories and even if it's even if it's really good you will you know the the reviewer will cut just half a point from each question. You go down the list. So So sometimes it'll be lucky, sometimes it's, you know, it just didn't work out. Um, so having that in mind, how maybe having seen the process from that side, being an evaluator, and seeing how difficult of a job you have to do, and and how good the proposals these days are, they're all excellent, you know. It's so difficult to choose. Um, you know, you can't be too upset because you know that you probably had a really good proposal. It's just that it's somehow some other proposal fitted slightly better and got traffic point more than you, and that's it. So you just have to keep trying. So I guess I am thinking I'll just uh I I've got a good piece of work already written, I'll improve it, and then I'll submit again. And I think this is the same with papers, don't you find? I have seen that the best papers, um and I talk to different colleagues around the universities in the world, really, and they tell me now you to get a good paper accepted, you almost never do it the first time. You have to have revisions again and again, and maybe a second journal, a third journal, and then you manage to get it, and it looks so much nicer and polished, and no one will know that it went through all these processes, all the steps before, because it's just so easy to read and so easy and beautiful type, you know, research that you read. And you can't see their the waves it went through before. And and having that in mind, I think has helped.

John 45:30

Yeah. And that's quite interesting, what you said there, because rejection and using rejection as a stepping stone, you know, you take a reverse comment, you say, okay, you know, they said this makes sense, you know, and using that comment to improve your your skills for the for the next submission. So that's that's quite interesting.

Antonia 45:48

And if you want a more practical note, I mean you can always have a little bit of ice cream and help you with that as well. Um, you know, some ice cream.

John 45:54

Yeah, like ice cream or chocolate.

Antonia 45:57

Yeah, something like that. Something that makes you feel a little bit better.

John 46:00

Better, yeah. All right. So um another thing I wanted to say there, because you mentioned about your, you know, you're happy that you got this funding because it helped your PhD students and everything. So if an early career researcher were listening to this episode today, what would be the one thing you you hope they will know or do differently tomorrow?

Antonia 46:23

Um I have thought over the you know, past many years, people have asked me, oh, what advice would you give and all that? And um I have attempted to give a lot of advice in the past, and then I thought, oh, I should a bit like an imposter, who am I to be giving advice, you know? And and then I thought, well, there's many, there's lots of advice I can give, you know, do what you love, do what you you know best drives you and you're most excited about, and things hopefully will come naturally. But I also I I also don't want to to give sort of this, you know, advice from the high position because I wanted I'm being really careful to make sure I any advice I give is something I truly follow. Because you know, there's the thing that say do as I say, not as I do. Um so of course it's important to do what you love and and and what you know would drives you, but it's not necessarily always easy to do that because as a practical matter, you might have a family, you might need a job at a salary, so you at the end might do whatever you can. Um so I think definitely something that um is important, and I I I follow that to the letter, is the people you work with. Um to try to find people that will uplift you, that will make you feel like you belong, um to have basically people around an environment around you that will be an environment of uh trust and openness and transparency. Um and you know, I I know this because this is what works for me. Um this is the reason I will go to work because I know that the people I will see there, they're people that I feel like that around them. Um I guess if you are an early career researcher, um you need to try to question the places you go. Um, as they question you, of course, to give you the job, but you have to question them. How's the environment? Um, what do you expect to do? Do you really expect me to be working nights and weekends? We it would be a really good thing to try to shift that in the future. As we're shifting you know, the childcare responsibilities that we were talking about before. Maybe we need to shift our mentality and try to have an environment that is more inclusive and uh um uh healthier. Um I I see I I've seen a lot of you know in the past social media posts by different PIs and they would be celebrating, oh, we are 10 p.m. in the lab with all the team, pizza and working. And I thought, well, I'm I'm glad you're having a good time, but you should probably be in the lab at 10 p.m. Because, well, if you want to be with the team, don't be the lab, go to the bar or you know, to the somewhere else to celebrate with them. You shouldn't be working all this time and you shouldn't make them feel that they should be working. Um so yeah, try to find mentors and I guess managers that will make an environment like that for you.

John 49:37

Yeah, that that's quite interesting. Right, we're near the end of our of our um episode today, and we've got some quick fire questions that we always ask our guests. Are you ready for them?

Antonia 49:48

Good. Okay, let me try.

unknown 49:50

Okay.

John 49:51

First question a book you recommend that is outside your field.

Antonia 49:55

I read a lot of science fiction. I love science fiction. And um the three-body problem was one that I loved. And the and the the the trilogy, the the subsequent two books. So definitely that one for now.

John 50:10

That's brilliant. That's very good. Yeah, I like I like a three-body problem as well. I think it's a great, it's a great series. Alright, most overrated academic habit.

Speaker 1 50:22

Ah, habit. Um eating the free food.

John 50:28

Speaker, really.

Antonia 50:32

But the food is not that great, and we I know I need to stop eating it because it's always cake, and I, you know, it's not good for me.

John 50:38

So, yeah, one of those academics that go to the uh um is it the canteen, the common room for looking for Well, my office is next to it.

Antonia 50:45

I can't avoid it, you know.

John 50:46

Oh, you are that explains it. Right. Best pushes under 100 pounds.

Antonia 50:52

Under 100 pounds, oh god. Uh a tra uh a travel, a ticket, uh, a plane, a plane ticket.

John 51:01

To where?

Antonia 51:02

To to any to any beach, you know, to any nice sunny beach place.

John 51:08

Oh, nice, nice. Okay, that that's a good one. So I guess that links to my next question. The pastime that relieves stress and gets you back into the zone.

Antonia 51:17

Yeah, for me, it's always going back to uh back to a warm place. I mean, I live in England and I love it here, the diversity and all that it offers, but the weather is not what I grew up with, you know? And uh I think uh um the joke in my family is that I have to be sent to the bank back to the manufacturer a few times a year to start feeling better and more uh rejuvenated. And so I go back to Greece often. That's yeah, that's what I do.

John 51:47

That's brilliant. Yeah, Greece has a very good uh good wider and climate, yes. Thank you very much, um Antonia. It's been very good having you on um our podcast. Thanks so much. And thank you very much for sharing your human story behind the robots. We look forward to having you again um at one point in the future. Thank you very much.

Antonia 52:06

Thanks so much, John. I really enjoyed it.

John 52:10

Thank you for listening to this episode of Human Stories Behind the Robots. If you have enjoyed this conversation, please follow and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss future episodes. You can also learn more about the UK RAS network, our events, activities, and opportunities by visiting our website. We would love to hear your thoughts about this episode, so please share it with your colleagues and friends. I've been Dr. John Oyeco, and this has been the Human Stories Behind the Robots. Until next time, thank you for listening.